Fangirling is so difficult

[the_deep_magic]

Ok, poll time.  I just wrote a fic where the (hopefully humorous) twist is finding out which character in the pairing tops.  Because it's a surprise, I didn't tag for it on AO3, but now I'm getting comments saying I should add a tag so people who like that dynamic can find it more easily, and people who don't like it can avoid... getting a nasty surprise, I guess? 

Me, I don't think I've ever had a slash ship where I care very strongly about which character tops, as long as its at least somewhat plausibly written.  So it didn't even occur to me that anyone would be put off by it.  But I guess some people are.  My instinct is to just leave it as it is and let people deal -- I don't see it as potentially triggering (there's no D/s involved or anything), and I don't want to ruin the surprise.  But I'm open for input:

[Poll #1878504]

Comments

[therumjournals.livejournal.com]

I hate to give away any aspects of my fic - even when warnings require it, such as with non-con or something, it bums me out because I feel like I'm giving something away, which wouldn't be the case in, say, a novel. So I said no, but that's my selfish writerly, uh, self speaking :-)

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

Aaaaand I just got a "fuck you" comment for a throwaway line I didn't even think twice about. Literally, the person said "fuck you."

I know, the whole warnings system is frustrating. I understand it, and I don't personally want to be reading something where one beloved character is suddenly sexually assaulting another (which doesn't usually happen in novels... usually), but I don't want to give away the whole plot of the thing in the warnings. :oP

[therumjournals.livejournal.com]

Yikes! People be crazy (and mean!). Warnings I understand, obviously, but I don't see how who tops or bottoms is something that needs to be warned for usually. I never really put much thought into tagging except when comms have certain rules for it. But I think there are more "rules" for it now - my impression is that it's used somewhat differently from LJ on both AO3 and tumblr.

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

I actually like the idea of specific tagging (except some people on AO3 think they are Speshul Snowflakes and have these stupid, idiosyncratic, rambling tags that are longer than the fics themselves ::grumble, grumble::) because if I want to find me some fisting fic for a certain pairing, I can. But then people start EXPECTING you to tag for everything...

[bbuttercup.livejournal.com]

Some readers are just tender and fragile :-)...... maybe you can add an author note to the bottom of the story so people can cheat if they're worried about there top/bottom otp headspace.

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

Maybe... but even addressing the idea of "who tops" makes it kind of obvious that I'm trying to subvert expectations. Well, that's what it would signal to me if I saw it as an A/N on someone else's fic.

[aprilleigh24.livejournal.com]

Maybe something like "I purposely did not tag who tops in this fic as i feel the reveal is important to the story. For those who simply must know, I've shared that info in the end notes."

Gives people the choice.

But yeah, sorry about the hassle people are giving you...:(

[janice-lester.livejournal.com]

This. Make it easy for 'em to find out if they want to without risking spoiling those who don't and everyone ought to be happy, right? Or at least not entitled to complain.

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

C&Ping what I wrote to aprilleigh, because I'm lazy:

I might, but even mentioning it makes it kind of obvious that "hey, it's not going to be who you think it is." And I haven't gotten too much hassle (not about THAT -- I got a nasty comment about something completely unrelated). Just as many people said they liked the surprise, so... IDK.

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

I might, but even mentioning it makes it kind of obvious that "hey, it's not going to be who you think it is." And I haven't gotten too much hassle (not about THAT -- I got a nasty comment about something completely unrelated). Just as many people said they liked the surprise, so... IDK.

[perdiccas.livejournal.com]

You're tagging with the pairing right? It's just the who tops that's not mentioned?

Ignore the whiners. I've literally never seen a fic on AO3 that's tagged with top!character or bottom!character, so idk why they're expecting you to. I mean, I can see the argument that it sucks if you're specifically looking for top!character and you can't find it, but since it gives away your twist I don't think it's your responsibility to cater to that.

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

In this fandom I DO see tags for the top and bottom, because one dynamic is much more common than the other, so the less common one tends to get tagged in case people are looking for it. But I don't get the feeling that not tagging it is driving readers away in droves, so I'm thinking they can just back-click if they don't like.

[pyrexic.livejournal.com]

I tend to have strong preferences on who tops and bottoms when it's full-on porn, but I know the story you're talking about, and "warning" for it would have ruined the whole joke!

I generally appreciate super detailed tags, including ones about dynamics, even in non-D/s stories, but I hardly think authors have any kind of OBLIGATION to warn for dynamics, and this case I'm actually against it (even though it ended up being opposite to my preference), because, as I said, it sort of ruins the plot twist.

(To be perfectly honest I find people who complain about lack of warnings baffling even for potentially triggery things. I understand the reason perfectly, but do they ever read... books??)

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

I generally appreciate super detailed tags, including ones about dynamics, even in non-D/s stories, but I hardly think authors have any kind of OBLIGATION to warn for dynamics

YES, THIS, EXACTLY. I like having the option of using specific tags, but I also want to exercise my right to not use them if I don't want to.

And I understand warnings for major triggery things, because I know I have different expectations for novels than I do for fic. I read fic as an escape and I don't like completely hopeless endings, and hell, I WANT to know the characters are going to get together and not, like, suddenly veer into non-con or drop dead or something. But sometimes I still get frustrated: do you want a story, or do you want a bullet list?

[lousy-science.livejournal.com]

This, all this.

[rae1013.livejournal.com]

People suck. This is a universal law. When it comes to tagging I've been toying with the idea of just not doing it. There are a lot of people posting about how they want to be unspoiled and I'm kinda sick of giving everything away up front so the story's no longer a surprise just to be sure no one gets upset.

Someone is always going to get upset. I think I'll just provide a link to warnings and triggers for those who may need them but let the rest ride outside of specific coms that have rules for posting. At AO3 specifically I suggest putting that information at the end of the post.

As for who tops? That's for bookmarking so you can find it again when the mood strikes. I don't think that's something that needs to be included in tags for every story. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it tagged specifically on AO3 at all.

And I'm sorry other people got their stupid on you. Good news is it doesn't stain! =)

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I guess someone's always going to bitch, no matter what you do. But the comments about the top/bottom thing weren't really impolite, just puzzling to me. Like, is it really that important to you to know in advance?

[anivad.livejournal.com]

I've been on both sides of this issue (as someone who gets easily triggered by stuff, but who is also a writer who doesn't like giving things away even if they might be triggery), maybe it would work best to give a general warning? i.e. you don't have to say that who tops/bottoms is what might be an issue, but something more along the lines of 'this fic might be triggery'. You could additionally specify what it isn't, e.g. '...but there's no non-con or dead people'.

That way, people who are prone to triggers would be duly warned, and be able to decide if they want to take the risk; and those who aren't won't get spoiled.

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

I don't even know that it IS triggery, but it seems like everything's triggery to someone, so... I don't know.

[anivad.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's true. I have some pretty rare triggers myself, so egh; but I don't expect people to warn for them.

Perhaps you could mention that this fic doesn't contain any usual triggers, but one/a few have claimed that it was for them, so if a reader thinks they might be particularly sensitive to that, they could decide accordingly?

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

None of the commenters actually said it was triggery, they just said they would have preferred to know beforehand. I just wanted some general thoughts on whether or not it could be considered a trigger.

[anivad.livejournal.com]

Ahhhh, okay. That changes things. In that case screw them, and pity them for their inability to enjoy anything with a twist. >_>

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

If somebody is actually triggered by who's topping, that's a rare enough trigger that I wouldn't think thy could just expect people to warn for it. If they're truly that bothered by it they shouldn't wade into fics that don't specifically say who's going to top; otherwise I'm feeling callous enough to suspect they're just whining because one kind of sex isn't to their preference.

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

The comments weren't impolitely worded, it just never occurred to me that people might get to the end of a fic and wish they hadn't read it because of who tops.

[daffodelias.livejournal.com]

Yes, it could be triggering

I'm trying to find a way of saying this without being a total douchebag, but... seriously? Why would you read a ship if you're triggered by one of the characters?

[the-deep-magic.livejournal.com]

I honestly don't know WHAT'S a fucking trigger anymore. And to be fair, none of the comments referred to it as such, I just didn't know if some people felt that way. I think it's more about readers being put off by who tops, but I don't think a mild aversion is something I need to warn for, especially if it gives away a plot twist (well, calling it a "plot" would be generous, but for the sake of argument...)

I was mostly just wondering if the top/bottom dynamic was something people feel so strongly about that it ought to be tagged for, because it never even occurred to me that it might put people off.

[daffodelias.livejournal.com]

I can understand wanting to know who is the D in a D/s fic because I know a lot of people have preferred assertive/passive partner preferences but... if it's just whose dick is going in whose ass? Like, why is that even a thing anymore? For all its gender equality, no kink-shaming/assuming whatevers, is fandom really still that hung up on the penetrating partner being the more dominant one? (Why am I even asking this? This assumption is plastered all over Glee fic, and it drives me crazy.)

Like, seriously guys, some people just really like it up the butt. It means nothing in the grand scheme of things, there is no deeper meaning, it does not necessarily affect the dynamic of their relationship - it just means they like things in their butt.

I like your comment above about whether people want a story or a list of bullet points, because it really does feel like fandom is so specific in their wants and demands of fic that they just want a list of things to check off now.